Zack Snyder’s Justice League (2021) non spoiler review

Discussion in 'Reader Reviews' started by thing, Mar 18, 2021.

  1. thing

    thing Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,833
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    New Zealand
    This four hour version of Justice League might have an hour of footage from the two hour version from 2017 abut even most of that footage is given very different context by the 3 unseen hours. The film looks a lot better and more consistent visually and has a much clearer and often over explained storyline. The first two hours is filled with narration, exposition and montages (often in slow motion). The next two hours is where the team finally forms and are much better paced. The fact that this was released for streaming means Snyder got to show absolutely everything he filmed and it does feel a little long and I think a theatrical cut of Snyder’s vision around the three hour mark could be better. That said this is far better than the mashup we got in 2017 that cut the heart out of the film and so much storyline based around Cyborg and the Flash to a lesser degree.
    6/10
     
    othervoice1 likes this.
  2. Zombie Dude

    Zombie Dude Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2008
    Messages:
    7,097
    Likes Received:
    1,981
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Australia
    I watched it last night. Firstly I'll say I probably enjoyed the first half way more than others from what I'm seeing. I just really loved seeing where the different characters were at. It builds up things far far better here. The intro of the movie was haunting to me. It was very dark and I had chills.
    All the introductions to our characters was much better and more interesting. Cyborg is actually good in this and finally has character. I feel really sorry for Ray that they butchered his role the first go round. Even the Flash I liked a lot better here. His powers are better explored and what he does at the end is really damn cool.
    Oh and I shouldn't forget that another stand out here is Steppenwolf. He's actually a fleshed out character now, with clear motivation and objective. They actually make you feel a bit sorry for the guy. A vast improvement over mommies boy from Josstice League.

    I had a couple of negatives with possible spoilers if you haven't been following along with the new on this.
    There was some flashes to the future during Superman's re-birth. Some of that really didn't look finished and it was a little jarring. The new Joker scene was filmed a bit odd for me too. That particular scene I definitely need to see again as it's right at the end and is a bit to take in lol.
    The other thing was that I don't really think they needed to add was Martian Manhunter. It was a cool idea but he's not really needed.

    All in all this was really great though. Truly a triumph to finally have this film out and prove what a train-wreck that previous version was. Plus it was really something to have a superhero film that feels like a full epic in vision and scope. It does make me hope we might see more of this world in the future.

    I know I've got more to say but there's a lot to take in with that runtime. I'll need to find some time to watch it again. Hope you guys enjoy it as much as I did.
     
    Steel76 likes this.
  3. thing

    thing Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,833
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    New Zealand
    My biggest problem with the first half is that a lot of it were long slow motion glamour shots that added neither to story or character
     
  4. Zombie Dude

    Zombie Dude Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2008
    Messages:
    7,097
    Likes Received:
    1,981
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Australia
    There was a little bit at the start (maybe a lot) but I honestly don't even notice it for the most part. I think it's a neat part of Zack's style.

    Anyone else had a chance to see this yet?
     
  5. buck135

    buck135 Kanamit

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2004
    Messages:
    4,597
    Likes Received:
    1,231
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    A dimension of sight, sound and mind.
    I watched it. I'm a big Snyder fan, so I was happy that he was able to finish the film. What I love about it is it's made for DC fans. WB wasn't going to be able to build theme parks around it which was part of the problem. This film wasn't made for the masses. When Batman says the following to the Joker, you know there won't be any tie-ins with Burger King:

    "When I held Harley Quinn and she was bleeding and dying, she begged me with her last breath that when I killed you, and make no mistake, I will fucking kill you, that I’d do it slow. I’m gonna honour that promise.”

    It has its flaws, but all in all I enjoyed it. I admit that I got teary eyed at the end credits when it said FOR AUTUMN, followed by a terrific rendition of Hallelujah which was her favorite song.

    7 out of 10.
     
    Zombie Dude likes this.
  6. dave13

    dave13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2008
    Messages:
    5,742
    Likes Received:
    1,200
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I liked it quite a bit. It's bittersweet since at this point it seems like it won't end up getting resolved, but I like that Snyder felt he could make the film he wanted to make so that we could clearly see what he had in mind for the series overall. I would have loved to see where he would have taken it. Although I thought the final sequence with the Joker was probably the weakest point of the film. The dialogue felt really forced and unnatural. Like he was trying to cram in too much exposition about what the future films would have been. If he were actually expecting to make those films, I dont think he would have presented that scene at all like he did.
     
    Zombie Dude likes this.
  7. Zombie Dude

    Zombie Dude Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2008
    Messages:
    7,097
    Likes Received:
    1,981
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Australia
    With a lot of the positive reactions and reviews for this cut, it might not be totally off the cards that Zack could return to do more. And with how WB seems to be moving forward with DC and films like Joker, The Batman and The Suicide Squad taking place it what appears to be different timelines, it doesn't seem totally out of the question. Not only that but I hear the head of HBO Max is a big Snyder fan.
     
    buck135 likes this.
  8. dave13

    dave13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2008
    Messages:
    5,742
    Likes Received:
    1,200
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I'd love it if that were the case. I know they're saying now that this is it, and that he won't be involved in any further DC films, but that seems a bit cagey to me.
     
    Zombie Dude likes this.
  9. Zombie Dude

    Zombie Dude Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2008
    Messages:
    7,097
    Likes Received:
    1,981
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Australia
    Exactly. I have little to no interest in their films that are trying to replicate Marvel. I'll go to Marvel if I want that. I really enjoyed that Zack's films were more mature and would have had a solid "through ark" ending more conclusively. Makes it feel more epic and like it's its own thing. I love a lot of the Marvel stuff but it is getting a little exhausting that the story keeps going. Makes it start to feel like a long running tv series.
     
    buck135 and dave13 like this.
  10. Dave

    Dave Pimp

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 1999
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    585
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I enjoyed it immensely. RIP to Autumn.
     
    buck135 and Zombie Dude like this.
  11. ImmortalSlasher

    ImmortalSlasher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,535
    Likes Received:
    738
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    USA
    I saw it. I could write a book on the poor management of DC Comics movies. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future there are college and graduate level courses on what went wrong. I'll try to keep this short.

    1. We now have a first official studio / corporate released version of Justice League by one director. And also an official different Director's Cut version of Justice League. How crazy is that? Many times I call movies like the new Star Wars, official fan versions. And that's what the first version of Justice League feels like. And it was released first! You see fan versions of movies online with edits and different cinematography. It's pretty amazing that a big studio would allow these two versions to exist.

    2. I don't get people that hate or dislike the original cut over the Snyder Cut. The movies still use much of the same footage. With additions removed or added depending on the director. And different cinematography and soundtracks. Some of those were obvious originally. But you still have for the most part the same set pieces in each movie. The big differences are the additional scenes with Cyborg and to some extent Flash.

    On the plus side, the movie didn't feel long because I remember the original even though I only saw it once. But I think both are a mess. I can guess what happened too. When Whedon was originally hired, I think the story was that he was going to just finish Snyder's work. But then something else happened. I bet some suit told Whedon to do for Justice League what he did with Avengers. And they saw what Snyder had planned and they got the chance to ditch that. So that's what we got with the original version.

    By the way, here is the story for the Snyder sequels. I read someone point out that if this happened, Superman would play a kind of villain in the majority of his appearances.

    https://bleedingcool.com/comics/watched-zack-snyders-justice-league-read-the-two-sequels-he-planned/

    Snyder recently changed his mind on one plot point. Still, the plan itself was bad.

    https://bleedingcool.com/movies/zack-snyder-talks-lois-superman-baby-in-justice-league/

    This problem all started at the concept phase and should have been stopped there. Snyder loved that Dark Knight Returns comic and he did well with 300 and Watchmen. But Dark Knight Returns is not the comic to base a beginning of Justice League. I believe the writer of that comic hates Superman so that would explain things. I don't know why they would even want to tell a redemption Batman story when we just had a trilogy that ended in Batman retiring.

    I'll await whatever reboot happens with The Flash movie. Flash does have a few of the best scenes in the new cut. I had to watch that last scene a few times to understand what he was doing. But they can do far better than this. I'll probably never watch either movie again.
     
  12. Steel76

    Steel76 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    Messages:
    2,666
    Likes Received:
    1,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Sweden
    Finished the movie a while ago, and this was one hell of a major upgrade.
    It's not perfect though, as the pacing is a bit off at times, in the first two hours.
    Do we really need slow motion shots, with a damn song playing on the soundtrack?

    But overall, I'm happy with this cut.

    It's insane that Cyborg barely was a part of the theatrical cut, since he's VERY important to the plot.

    Too bad, that we won't get a continuation of this story, as it build up to an even greater arc.

    The ones responsible for fucking up the story, in the theatrical cut, should be fired!
    Even though Snyder wasn't able to finish the theatrical version, they should at least have continued on with his story arc.
     
    Zombie Dude likes this.
  13. Zombie Dude

    Zombie Dude Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2008
    Messages:
    7,097
    Likes Received:
    1,981
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Australia
    People hate and dislike the theatrical version because it felt compromised. Fans of Zack knew it wasn't all his style . A lot of the jokes were forced or just felt like Whedon trying to replicate The Avengers with characters that, in this world they had already created, don't act like that. We'd already seen cool stuff in the initial trailer that was nowhere to be found in the film. I personally knew I was in for a shit fest when the film started with a cellphone video of Superman and the stupid face CGI. Steppenwolf was a joke of a villain that felt so vanilla and boring with him yelling "MOTHER" any chance he got.
    Then you have the films contrast boosted to make it look more colorful, and the change in character looks in the same scenes due to reshoots. The whole thing was a mess that would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

    At least one person from the production claims Whedon was still hung up on people not really enjoying Age of Ultron the same way the original Avengers was received, so he had this chip on his shoulder that he brought in with him. I also heard he took it upon himself to write new scenes like that pointless Russian family at the end and the scene with Batman at the beginning (the one where the kills a Parademon and then causally talks to Alfred right next to a criminal who can hear everything. Oh, and that Parademon also leaves a clue in it's blood splatter that informs Batman of what's to come which is so dumb).

    Also seems weird that pretty much all people of colour had their roles reduced or cut.

    Snyder's version is far more well realized, with fleshed out characters and a villain who's motivations we understand. The music is better, the story is better and it feels like an epic, not some popcorn flick you immediately forget about once you leave the cinema.
     
  14. ImmortalSlasher

    ImmortalSlasher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,535
    Likes Received:
    738
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    USA
    Yeah the original version was this odd mix match of styles. Whedon's opening with Batman immediately stuck out to me because I didn't get why Batman got that music. And it wasn't Snyder's style. I wasn't surprised to see that not in Snyder's version. And a lot of the dumber things in the Whedon version are gone. But some of that humor is still there. Flash is still the comedy relief but not as much. I kind of liked Whedon's scene when Flash zips around the Batcave.

    Cyborg definitely has a main role in Snyder's version. I hope the actor got paid even though they cut his scenes in the original. I read a few stories about his situation on Dark Horizons. The actor that plays Cyborg's Father has a bigger role as well. He was the tech guy in Terminator 2.

    It's odd. With the length of the movie it still doesn't feel as epic to me as it should. Perhaps that's because of the first version. And when that ending stuff with Lex happens the bottom really dropped for me. The best movies have the best villains. Lex is terrible in this. And I think even Snyder now knows that Joker should be dead since Batman wanted to kill Superman originally. It just feels like they don't have a grasp on the characters they are making. Batman keeps having these future dreams. If they were thinking, they could have used Zatanna for that. But maybe they thought that was too similar to Shadowcat in one of those X-Men movies.

    But anyway, we will most likely get a clean up in The Flash movie. They attempted to do something like that in the comics I think with New 52. I only read a few of those and it was bad too. Justice League was actually a quick Darkseid story as well. And pick and choose of which character got rebooted. And if you haven't read it this is a big spoiler but almost ties into this.

    Turns out that the blue guy in Watchmen was manipulating the DC Universe or something like that. This is how they got the Watchmen into the DC Universe.

    I actually liked Age of Ultron. It isn't better than The Avengers. But the world building is far better in those movies. I just believe you try to put your best movie on screen. Justice League cartoons and comics are better than both the Whedon and Snyder cuts.
     
  15. ImmortalSlasher

    ImmortalSlasher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,535
    Likes Received:
    738
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    USA
    Speaking about Zatanna, I just read that they are working on a Zatanna film.

    https://www.darkhorizons.com/emerald-fennell-to-pen-dcs-zatanna-film/

    And also Pierce Brosnan was cast as Dr. Fate. They could have used him in Justice League as the guy who gives Batman the future dreams.

    https://www.darkhorizons.com/pierce-brosnan-is-dr-fate-in-black-adam/

    I still don't like the redemption of Batman story, the bad Superman, or child reveal, but either Zatanna or Dr Fate would have helped and made some sense. A lot better than Martian Manhunter who was almost a pointless cameo.
     
  16. Anaestheus

    Anaestheus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    1,659
    Likes Received:
    192
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I think I spent almost as much time writing this as I did watching the movie. Anyway....

    I was really surprised.

    I've always found Snyder interesting but have to admit that I'm not sure if he's really that good of a filmmaker. I tend to defend his earlier films because they were all better than they had any expectation to be. In many cases, he made changes to the source material that were considerable improvements over the originals, particularly the addition of a (possibly unreliable) narrator to 300 and the replacement of the giant space squid with the framing of Dr. Manhattan. And that owls movie was just plain fun. Then comes Sucker Punch. And, it takes a really bad director to make a film about women is school girls' uniforms fighting giant robot samurai and nazi zombies boring. But, I do like his intentions with that film. I just don't think he was intelligent or talented enough to really tackle those intentions with the nuance they needed. And I don't think I could think of director that could have pulled it off, really.

    But, I have really disliked all of his straight up superhero movies. I really hated Man of Steel and BvS. I thought they were complete messes that totally missed the point of the characters. I am all for interpreting characters differently and playing around with their iconography. But, those two were so inconsistent in their portrayal that they actually were just depressing to watch. That said, I have heard either Affleck or Cavill talk about what Snyder's original vision for the MoS trilogy and I have to say that it sounded really interesting and could have put context on the first film that actually made it a very interesting and possibly good/great film. But, it seems like BvS was rather forced on him by studio mandates and many of the things that I hated about that film actually might not be his fault.

    The original theatrical cut of Justice League was a mess. Likely no need to explain any justifications for that opinion.

    So, with all that, I was really interested to see what the Snyder Cut would be. And, I have to say I liked it a lot more than I expected. It's long, but it's also quite epic. There's no denying that Snyder does "big" well. But, that can also be a bit of a detriment. He still gets so busy showing off how cool and powerful his heroes are that I never really feel that they are in much danger. For contrast, (yeah, Marvel) we see Thanos completely hand everyone their asses in Infinity War. We really do get a sense of how powerful he is and there does seem to be a real sense that the heroes may fail. Snyder just seems to like his heroes too much to show them in that light. But, I gotta say that the scenes where we meet the heroes showing off their powers are all really excellent. Wonder Woman's intro at the hostage situation was fantastic. At least right up to the last moment when it got really stupid. Likewise the whole prolonged Amazon sequence. It really highlighted what a mess of editing the Whedon cut was. And Flash's introduction was ridiculously cool and sweet.

    I'll say that Superman was much better handled in this film than he has been in any of the others. Though, he's still an overpowered god with little real personality. He at least "seems" like someone who could be considered "heroic", which is a huge improvement over the previous films.

    And it certainly was nice to see Cyborg "fleshed" out a lot more (hee hee). But this also leads to one of Snyder's larger flaws with his DC films. We don't really see his characters change very much. Yeah, he has everyone get their "dad died for me moment" that's supposed to be part of their transitional arc. But, is Cyborg really any different at the end of the film than he was at the beginning? I know people kept saying that he was the "heart" of the story. And he certainly was an integral catalyst in making the plot actually flow from one scene to the next. (really hard to believe that anyone at WB thought the story could survive having his character whittled down) But I didn't feel any emotional core from him. If anyone seemed to have "heart" it was Flash. And this version seemed to sideline him significantly.

    Some random thoughts observations:

    For all the talk of Snyder as a chauvinistic filmmaker and Whedon as a feminist one, it's interesting to note which cut features more shots of Gal Gadot's butt.

    I really like Ezra Miller's take on Flash and I did miss his arc from the Whedon film. Particularly his exchange with Batman at the climax about "just save one at a time" I thought that was a really nice statement about how to become a hero.

    And as much as it was tonally off, I did think the scene with Aquaman sitting on the Lasso of Truth was pretty funny. So, it was a bit of a shame to see that lost. But it definitely would not have fit in this film even if it was somehow written by Snyder.

    The introduction of Martian Manhunter shows how ineffective Snyder can be at handling emotions. Did Snyder not realize how much he unraveled the impact of the previous scene? Was that really necessary at all?

    "Anti-Life"? Maybe that was fleshed out better in the comics, but everything about that from the description to the name seemed so lazy.

    I was surprised how much of the Nightmare world was removed. Is Snyder saying that he wouldn't have used any of that footage of Batman fighting the demons that took up a noticeable portion of the Whedon cut? Was that material not shot by Snyder? That just seemed odd to me.

    While it was nice to have an attempt to give Steppenwolf some personality/history he still was a really annoying villain.

    That Amazon sequence - I still gotta say again, some of those shots, like the warriors knocking out the pillars of the temple had me saying "Wow". That was just an excellent sequence that I thought was worth mentioning again.

    What is Batman even doing in the climax? One of the bigger flaws of this film is that it really struggles to make Batman a necessary part of the story. One of the highlights of BvS was the way Snyder handled Batman/Wayne. This time around, he seems kinda lost.

    As many have mentioned, the epilogue is way too long. But Snyder seems to have acknowledged this as well stating that he really only did this to try to show some of the directions he had intended to take the series if he was still involved. So, I do give this indulgence a bit of a pass.

    I do not need to hear another singer do a weak interpretation of "Hallelujah" that misses all of the complexity of the original song. But, then again, that may be a good description of Snyder.

    In the end, I have to say that while it may still not be a cinematic masterpiece or even Snyder's best film, it was certainly an interesting one to watch. But, I don't know if that would have been the case if it wasn't for the fun of comparing it to the Whedon cut and the ability to enjoy how much better it was than that. And, while I don't align much with Snyder fans, I have to say they should feel somewhat vindicated. There is no doubt that this is very much a Snyder film. And it highlights his strengths as a filmmaker in exemplary fashion. But, it also still has most of his weaknesses. And it really shows off how poorly WB has managed their whole DC campaign.

    If you hate Snyder start to finish, this will likely not convince he is a genius. If you've dislike all WB's DC films so far, this probably won't win you over. If you were looking for something that unseats any of the Avengers best films, this isn't it. But, it is a very unified and distinct approach to familiar characters and it does succeed a lot more than it fails. As a testament to studios vs. auteurs, it makes a pretty good argument. But, it's still no "Brazil". But, if you are a fan of all of his work or even have at least found Snyder an interesting person to watch , I think it is something to cheer about.

    PS - I have a ten page version of my comments that HorrorDVDs won't let me post. #ReleaseTheAnaestheusComments (that's not true)
     
    dave13 likes this.
  17. ImmortalSlasher

    ImmortalSlasher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,535
    Likes Received:
    738
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    USA
    Snyder's wife is a producer on Sucker Punch. I guess she couldn't help that movie either. Nor could Carla Gugino who played an almost pointless character.

    Seriously though, the movie could have been workable as a dark fantasy for women embellished by an older grandmother to her young grand kids. The grandmother being Abbie Cornish's character. But the movie as it stands is only somewhat watchable for those dream fight scenes.
     

Share This Page